‘Who Framed Roger Rabbit’, ‘Mank’, and ‘Shirkers’ make up a cinematic smorgasbord with notes of Old Hollywood, Citizen Kane, and lost film mysteries in this episode with Susie Youssef and Alexei Toliopoulos.
‘Who Framed Roger Rabbit’, ‘Mank’, and ‘Shirkers’ make up a cinematic smorgasbord with notes of Old Hollywood, Citizen Kane, and lost film mysteries in this episode with Susie Youssef and Alexei Toliopoulos.
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Susie Youssef:
It's also the first time that Bugs Bunny and Mickey Mouse were ever on screen together, but they both had to be on screen for the exact same amount of time.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Ooh, it sounds like there's contracts that action movie stars like Vin Diesel have. It was like, I cannot be beaten by The Rock. I have to beat The Rock at every fight that we get into.
Susie Youssef:
So essentially Bugs Bunny and Mickey Mouse are the Vin Diesel in The Rock of the animation films.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
I think you're back on.
Susie Youssef:
Hello, and welcome to the big film buffet.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
I'm the Big Film Buff, Alexei Toliopoulos, and I would consider myself a great film lover.
Susie Youssef:
And I'm Susie Youssef. And I would consider myself a great lover of films.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
But you don't need to be big film buff...
Susie Youssef:
Or a great lover...
Alexei Toliopoulos:
To enjoy the delights that this podcast offers.
Susie Youssef:
Each episode, we'll be sharing with you a three-course feast of movies inspired by this week's Netflix premiere film.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
We'll roll up today with the classic startup.
Susie Youssef:
And we'll cut to a dessert of recommendations.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
And for our main course, the latest from David Fincher, Mank. Today, we're talking filmmaking and films about filmmaking. It's both the magic of the movies and a peek behind the curtain of Hollywood.
Susie Youssef:
It's just a great excuse for us to dust off one of our favourite VHS tapes from 1988 and watch the classic tune thriller our starter for today, Who Framed Roger Rabbit?
Speaker 10:
"Drink the drink."
Speaker 11:
"But I don't want the drink."
Speaker 12:
"He doesn't want the drink."
Speaker 11:
"He does".
Speaker 10:
"I don't."
Speaker 11:
"You do."
Speaker 10:
"I don't."
Speaker 11:
"You do."
Speaker 10:
"I don't."
Speaker 11:
"You do."
Speaker 10:
"I don't."
Speaker 11:
"You don't."
Speaker 10:
"I do."
Susie Youssef:
Hollywood, 1947. Hard-boiled private investigator, Eddie Valient is hired by a movie studio mogul to spy on a wife suspected of playing patty-cake behind the back of her husband. One of the biggest stars in Hollywood, Roger Rabbit, who soon becomes the prime suspect in a murder.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Susie, this is one of the most exciting movies of all time for me. This is such an iconic classic. It's an unbelievable technical achievement. It's one of the only collaborations of screen icons, Mickey Mouse and Bugs Bunny. It's the definition of the magic of the motion pictures and a childhood favourite for all. But truly it's also one of the horniest films ever made. Jessica Rabbit voice by Kathleen Turner went from silver screen star to freight truck mud flat pin-up instantly.
Susie Youssef:
I don't know what's sexier, the animation of Jessica rabbit or the voice of Kathleen Turner, but the combination of the two. Wow, okay? I'm trying to think of a different way of saying boner maker.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Well, earlier you did say stiffy supplier, which I did love.
Susie Youssef:
I don't want to put my name to that.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Why? I was so proud of you.
Susie Youssef:
I know that you were.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Well speaking of, I actually have a fun fact about Jessica Rabbit's bosom.
Susie Youssef:
But we're going to save that fun fact about Jessica Rabbit's bosom for our sealed section which she can get at the end of the podcast.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
It's too cheeky for this part of the podcast.
Susie Youssef:
Yes, it is. Look, if there is an opposite to a stiffy supplier, which I am sure that there is. It's a spectrum of sorts. Then it has to be the villain of this film. So Judge Doom is played by Christopher Lloyd. And I think that he has to be one of the most menacing creations ever to be seen on the screen; that black trench coat, the cold dead shark eyes of Christopher Lloyd haunting my dreams since probably the late '80s.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
It truly is one of the great villain performance of all time. I think it's kind of, because Christopher Lloyd had already worked with Director Robert Zemeckis on the Back to The Future trilogy. So I think it's kind of bringing this new energy. He knows how to play with this actor and make him do something completely wacko while still utilising the same kind of persona techniques that he really can bring to a performance.
Susie Youssef:
Well, that's funny you should say that because apparently Tim Curry auditioned for the role. I think he would have been scarier. I think he would have been too scary for this movie. Just thinking about it is making me shutter. He's a level of terrifying that is a step too far for Who Framed Roger Rabbit, because you have to remember that it wasn't just Christopher Lloyd playing the villain character. He was also followed around by those awful slinky weasels that drive the black car. Oh, it's just awful. But it's the right level of nightmare, but it's still terrifying.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
It still will get you. It'll still haunt you. Well, everyone knows this movie. Everybody knows Who Framed Roger Rabbit. It's so deeply beloved, but it's so interesting to go back to it now as an adult and someone who's watched so many more movies. You go back with his new found respect with how truly astonishing it is and how well crafted and how well made it is by just the sheer audacity that it pulls this crazy trick off of believing that these two dimensional characters live in a three-dimensional world.
Susie Youssef:
It's also the first time that Bugs Bunny and Mickey Mouse were ever on screen together in the same film. And it's because the AP who was a little guy called Steven Spielberg. Not sure if you've heard of him.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
I actually have heard of him. He's one of the most renowned and famous filmmakers of all time.
Susie Youssef:
Well, he was able to negotiate the deal, but they both had to be on screen for the exact same amount of time.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Ooh, it sounds like those contracts that like action movie starts like Vin Diesel have. It's like I cannot be beaten by The Rock. I have to beat The Rock at every flight that we get into.
Susie Youssef:
I just heard about these contracts. So essentially Bugs Bunny and Mickey Mouse are the VinDiesel and The Rock of the animation world.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
I think you're back on.
Speaker 10:
"You mean to tell me that you could have taken your hand out of that car at that time?"
Speaker 11:
"No, not at any time. Only when it was funny."
Alexei Toliopoulos:
In my opinion, and it's not humble. It is astute. Bob Hoskins gives the single most impressive and greatest screen performance in cinema.
Susie Youssef:
I think we need a sound effect for when you're about to make a big cut. I want to just be able to hit a button when I see you start to get worked up.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Oh, that's going to bleep out the whole podcast if you do that.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
It's an incredibly technical performance. And it's also so physical, like the respect that he gives to his tuned costars grounds this high concept film. He makes everything believable, which is just such a spectacular feat in a film like this. I think in modern blockbuster filmmaking where so many stars act opposite tennis balls representing like CG inserts. That's so commonplace now. And he really broke the ground for what that would be. But I actually don't think anyone has really been able to match what he did in this film.
Susie Youssef:
There's something about Bob Hoskins that's really warm. Like I feel like he's the kind of dude that I would love in real life. And I also feel like I know him.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Absolutely.
Susie Youssef:
I think it's because of films like Hook that I grew up with and that you love/ Films like Mermaids, even the film Mrs. Henderson that he did with Judy Dench just got me. I love him. I think he looks kind and I love him as a performer.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
He is one of my absolute favourite guys. Like I adore his work. He has this diverse career roles from stuff like this to gangster movies in the '70s and '80s, and then wacko stuff like Mario from the Mario Brothers Movie. But he's able to bring his integrity to make all of those roles work for what they are in the film.
Susie Youssef:
I think he makes his co-stars look really good.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Absolutely. Which is one of my more favourite things about this movie is actor comedian, Charles Fleischer plays Roger Rabbit in this movie. He came to set every single day, dressed...
Susie Youssef:
Oh no.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
... in a custom-made Roger Rabbit costume.
Susie Youssef:
That's so creepy.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
And he never stands in for Roger. He's always behind the camera and just supplying his lines. So if you watch any of the behind-the-scenes footage stuff for this movie, you'll see a man who's nearly 40 years old wearing a Roger Rabbit costume. And that is Charles Fleischer. Did he need to wear it?
Susie Youssef:
I would say no.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
No, he didn't need to wear it. But, did it help his performance?
Susie Youssef:
Also probably, no.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Maybe not, because I don't think they would have recorded his lines there on the set.
Susie Youssef:
Now way.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
But did it help Bob Hoskins into the world of the film? Truly, I hope so. I really do think Susie, that there's not a better example of movie magic than this film, Everything it does is in an effort to convince you something that is complete fantasy and completely surreal and unreal is something real and tangible. And the way that they did this is kind of astonishing. It would be like impossible to make, really, if it wasn't like big movie maniacs, like Steven Spielberg and Robert Zemeckis, and Bob Gale behind this film.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
It's so difficult to like rotoscope animation over film. Traditionally it would just be over a steel frame of like the camera not moving around to make it work. But the camera in this movie constantly moves. It's constantly panning around. It's continuously doing tracking shots. And so animators had to painstakingly create these characters to feel 3D and change the angle to go along with the camera to make sure shadows fell in the right place. To this day you watch it, and the fact that you're not conscious of those things.
Susie Youssef:
Yeah, it's amazing.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
It's what makes it work because they did everything to make you buy how real something imaginary can be.
Susie Youssef:
It's technically so beautifully done, but I have to say it rewatching it as an adult, I was like, this is the messiest freaking movie I have ever seen. It's so loud. It's so squeaky. It's so like...
Alexei Toliopoulos:
It's so complicated as well.
Susie Youssef:
It's so complicated, and like you said, there's almost every frame of the film has an animated character, which means that they were hand painting this animation onto photographs. That's how they made it?
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Yeah, over photographs and then translating that onto the film itself. It's wild.
Susie Youssef:
That's amazing.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
It's amazing. It's almost impossible to remember watching this movie as a kid because of how crazy the plot is, because it is mainly about trying to build a highway through Toon Town and the corruption of Hollywood.
Susie Youssef:
It's totally about the corruption of Hollywood, but the love story is very real. At the end, when you're watching the lovers hanging above the vat of dip, you're like, no. You're completely invested.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Well, speaking of all that Hollywood corruption behind the scenes spilling into the city itself, I think it brings us nicely to the movie that inspired us to come here today to our main course, I'm talking of course of Mank.
Speaker 12:
"Call me Mank."
Speaker 13:
"Mank."
Speaker 14:
"Mank."
Speaker 15:
"Mank."
Susie Youssef:
Mank is a snapshot of 1930s, Hollywood through the eyes of Herman J. Mankiewicz as he races to finish the screenplay for Citizen Kane.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Gary Oldman, as Herman J Mankiewicz. And I decipher it as Marion Davies, Lily Collins as Rita Alexander.
Susie Youssef:
And also as Phil Collin's daughter.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
And also as Emily and Paris. Mank follows the tradition of films that have an outsider on the inside of Hollywood. The world of Hollywood and filmmaking in large has a great tradition of looking inwards and making self-reflective films that really celebrate the history of cinema and the tenacity it takes to achieve the ambitions of art-making. And that's exactly what this film does while also showing us kind of like these weed insides of what's going on at Hollywood during this time, then forms a story of Citizen Kane.
Susie Youssef:
You can't talk about Mank without talking about Citizen Kane. And for those of us who did not go to film school, talk to me about Citizen Kane.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Citizen Kane has kind of become this weed, amorphous thing where it's known as the greatest movie of all time. It tops, all those lists by critics and filmmakers as the greatest film of all time. And it's become known as this masterpiece. I think that really turns people off it because you go in with all these expectations of what it's going to be and how can it possibly ever live up to them? I don't even know how many people have actually watched Citizen Kane. I think it would have to be one of those movies that people pretend to have seen the most.
Susie Youssef:
Oh, without a doubt. And I have to be honest, I have always found it really hard to actually watch Citizen Kane from beginning to end. I think I've started it maybe six times and only watched it through to the end once. It's one of those movies where it's of its time. It's a film that doesn't have the same pace of movies of today. So when you're going back and watching the classics, it's really hard to shift your expectations.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Totally, and I think that with something as big and as powerful as Citizen Kane, it really does set up a lot of the techniques that are now common in movie-making.
Susie Youssef:
But I have to ask, why is it known as a masterpiece? I think it's an amazing story, and I think that the script writing is incredible, but why?
Alexei Toliopoulos:
I would say it's like a combination of all of those things. Like it's a great script that is like this new form of storytelling as well. There's like a mystery in it that is kind of slowly revealed without even telling you, hey, there's a mystery behind this. It's this personal exploration. It's a character study, but also it has like really revolutionary film techniques with cinematography, the way that user dissolves away that tells a story visually is all at that time, very new and cutting edge ways of filmmaking.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Beyond all that, it's the Orson Welles thing. Orson Welles was like this wunderkind prodigy hen it comes to storytelling. He started out in theatre. He started out in radio plays with that crazy HG Wells adaptation of War of the Worlds, which is now one of those most iconic moments of pop culture history.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
This was his first film and he was in his 20s when he made it. He co-wrote it. Apparently this movie says [inaudible 00:12:53]. But he directed it and he stars in it and he plays a man throughout his entire life. So even the performance is really well-renowned that he's playing someone from a young man right up until their death. And when you watch it, you kind of do believe it. The makeup is still quite good to watch now in the 21st century.
Susie Youssef:
Okay fine, all of your points add up. And now I understand the hype behind Citizen Kane, but I actually have to say watching Mank made me appreciate Citizen Kane so much more.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
I actually think Mank really does a huge favour for Citizen Kane because it kind of lifts that curse that it has of being known as the greatest film of all time.
Susie Youssef:
Yeah, it does that thing that the wizard of Oz does. You Kind of see the man behind the curtain and it's not as scary anymore. It's not as mythical anymore. It just grounds the whole story once again.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Yeah, well funny you mentioned that because Herman Mankiewicz also wrote the Wizard of Oz.
Susie Youssef:
Oh Alexei, I know.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
It's true because it kind of takes away that auteurist myth that Orson Welles brought this film out of the depths of his soul. And it's like, oh no, Herman Mankiewicz wrote it. And it's based on real people that he knew. It makes everything real again and shows that there are real people that make these works of art that become iconic.
Speaker 4:
"I just saw 42nd street. It blew my wig."
Speaker 5:
"We could take the girl out of that stuff.Mankiewicz
Speaker 6:
"When was that?"
Speaker 4:
"Over the weekend. You were in DC. I went to the pictures in Santa Barbara."
Speaker 6:
"We'll find a screening room here."
Speaker 5:
"Warner's picture. Why waste money on that?"
Alexei Toliopoulos:
The screenplay from Mank was written by David Fincher's father, Jack Fincher, who himself was a writer and journalist who tragically passed away in 2003. Bringing the script to life has been on Fincher's dance card since the 1990s.
Susie Youssef:
That's a lot of pressure.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Absolutely, jack Fincher started the screenplay after a time from magazine writing. And David Fincher was just about to start his own career in feature film, directing with Alien 3. Only now is he able to go back and make Mank. The screenplay really is something special.
Susie Youssef:
Oh, it's excellent writing. It is such funny writing. It also replicates that old school Hollywood wit. It feels very authentic to that time, the way that they used to swear and kind of try and offend each other in the most intelligent way with the highest witticisms. I absolutely love that sense of humour. You get to see it not only from the male characters in the movie, but from the female characters, which I think that old school Hollywood did in a really great way. You see it with Jean Arthur in Mrs. Smith goes to Washington. They're these really sassy, smart broads that know how to turn a phrase.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
David Fincher is famously a 200-take director.
Susie Youssef:
What?
Alexei Toliopoulos:
It's like this Kubrickian ideal where some directors believe that you don't become authentic until like take 180.
Susie Youssef:
Until you go mad.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Yeah basically because then all the artifice of acting like drips away. Fincher talks about it openly that this is how he works now. Then it's so interesting hearing the actors talk about it. Amanda Seyfried was saying like it was the hardest she's ever worked, but how rewarding and how valuable it was to work with this director and all these great actors.
Susie Youssef:
I think that would drive me nuts.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
He's also very particular the way he does things. Gary Oldman really stands out in this movie. He's known now with this reputation of being one of the great modern chameleonic actors that can really escape and lose himself into a role. And often that's because he's like very in heavy prosthetics.
Susie Youssef:
Yeah, loves the makeup.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
He loves the makeup to bring like these biographical characters, these real people to life and transform into them. He kind of does it from the outside in. In this movie, Fincher requested for Gary au natural apparently. He didn't want any makeup. And he wants him to find the character.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
So Gary Oldman was really nervous about making this move because he was being restricted from his usual set of tricks. And what he pulls off is something really phenomenal because we don't need him to look like Herman Mankiewicz. I don't even know what Herman Mankiewicz looks like. I've watched like six documentaries on Citizen Kane, but you really believe him.
Speaker 5:
"You don't need my donation. You don't need anybody's. You have everything it takes right here.
Speaker 6:
Meaning?
Speaker 5:
Meaning you can make the world swear king Kong is 10 stories tall and Mary Pickford, a virgin at 40. You can convince starving voters that a turncoat socialist is a menace to everything Californian, oh dear. You're barely trying."
Susie Youssef:
I have to say as well that, because it's in black and white, it kind of feels bolder. And I think that the lighting in this is spectacular. There's so many times where I actually pause the film and took a photo of the screen because it looked like a painting.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
And this isn't the first time he's worked in black and white. He actually has maybe a film more iconic than all these other works. The film talking about is the video clip from Madonna's Vogue.
Susie Youssef:
He made that>.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
He made that.
Susie Youssef:
Wow.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
I would say it's his best work. That actually sounds like a negative, but I love that video clip and I love that song.
Susie Youssef:
Oh, it's iconic.
Speaker 4:
Well, what can I tell you, Mank? Marion Doris went to convent school.
Susie Youssef:
Amanda Seyfried steals this flick.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Yeah, she is really perfect for this character. She looks like modern version of Marion Davies, herself.
Susie Youssef:
She is absolutely gorgeous in it. She has nailed the entire Hollywood old-school walk and talk vibe.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Absolutely.
Susie Youssef:
I loved her in Main Girls. It's obviously a very different character than what she's playing in Mank.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
But it's a great performance.
Susie Youssef:
It's a great performance. And she's a very eclectic performer, but this was on point for the role.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Absolutely. I think she's phenomenal in this film and it will be a crime against humanity if she doesn't get an Oscar nomination.
Susie Youssef:
She totally should.
Speaker 4:
Well, I read the script.
Speaker 5:
Who hasn't?
Speaker 4:
It's very grand, Mank in its own way and very much you. I would have loved to play Mank 10 years ago.
Speaker 5:
It was never meant to be you.
Speaker 4:
For myself, I don't care, Mank. Really. I don't.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Let's talk about the structure of this movie because it really is so elliptical jumping back and forth between flashbacks and present day. It does mirror the structure of Citizen Kane itself.
Susie Youssef:
Last week I asked you about timelines and time kind of jumps and transitions in movie. And that was for Hillbilly Elegy. But here we have it in a very app transition. Fincher uses that kind of typewriter transition, where he literally spells out the location and the date, which is really helpful for people who find it difficult to follow movies. But he does it just like you would in a script or the way that a typewriter would type it out for a script.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
I find that kind of really sweet and delightful because this movie is about the making of one of those iconic screenplays, about an iconic screenwriter. That is just like a nice little touch. It feels like it's in the mind of Mankiewicz himself. I love that David Fincher is directing this because here it is. Here's my hard take.
Susie Youssef:
Oh, where is that button?
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Get that button loaded up. The social network is our generation's Citizen Kane. I's a big call, but I think it's really on point and I am going to congratulate myself it.
Susie Youssef:
Congratulations. I will congratulate you also, but please break it down for me.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Okay, number one, David Fincher also directed the Social Network.
Susie Youssef:
Okay.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
I would say number two is Citizen Kane. Charles Foster Kane is basically based on William Randolph Hearst, who was this media mogul in the early days. And I would say that the equivalent of like a media mogul is a social media oligarch. Then who is the example of that in this world? Other than the Zuck himself, Mark Zuckerberg.
Susie Youssef:
Okay.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
It's also odd to see in Mank how much social currency it has talking about these ideas of fake news and manipulated news. It's really fascinating, especially when you think that this movie was written 30 years ago, but now it feels like it's speaking to the modern day.
Susie Youssef:
I don't even if this makes sense, but what I'm hearing from you is that the Social Network is this generation's Citizen Kane, which means that there'll be a remake of Mank in 50 years. There'll be called Zuck based on Mark Zuckerberg's work or Sork based on Aaron Sorkin's work . I don't know what it actually is but I feel like that's what you're edging towards.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Yes and I'm going to be they one to do it. I'm actually right now making Zuck and it's going to be completely in digital photography. I'm going to shoot it on an iPhone in Facebook video. Susie, I want to hear your final thoughts in this movie, but I'm going to pose this question to you in the form of a poem.
Susie Youssef:
I'm ready.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Be honest with me. Did you think Mank stank or high up in films of David Fincher does this film rank?
Susie Youssef:
I'm not going to answer you in poetry, but I will say, I think this is a very film, buff film. And at the same time for me, it made me really nostalgic for black and white cinema. I think for anyone who just kind of misses old-school Hollywood or misses kind of parties and travel in general, you will love the escape of Mank..
Alexei Toliopoulos:
And if you are a film buff, you're going to absolutely adore Mank like I did.
Susie Youssef:
Oh yeah, you're going to Mank off on this.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
I would say that he does rank high up in my Fincher films. I would put it near the top with Zodiac, the Social Network, Seven, Alien 3, Fight Club. Also another movie that he's made called Vogue that stars Madonna
Susie Youssef:
In conclusion, Mank don't stank.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Mank don't stank. It's so good. You'll fill up the whole tank. I don't know what that means, but I liked that it rhymes.
Susie Youssef:
Say, kid, why not follow the big film buffet on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and send us a comment or a telegram? Rate us. Review us. Tell your friends, call your grandma, send us your love. And we'll love you right back with a new Ep every Tuesday.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
We have come to that time and our feast where we must cleanse our palates by playing a little game called film or movie. We are joined in the room by producer Michael.
Susie Youssef:
Now this game Alexei is best described by you because I stuff it up every time I try to do it.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Well, Producer Michael here will give us the title of a motion picture. And we must debate whether it is a film or a movie. Now, a movie is something that comforts you. It's delightful. It's popcorn. It's escapist, joy and escapist fare and escapist freedom. And the film on the other hand is all about art. It is all about the human soul. It is all about the human mind and the human brain and the...
Susie Youssef:
Human experience?
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Human experience. What have you got?
Michael Sun:
This week it's a motion picture about other motion pictures. It's Lala land.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Wow. The city of stars and the city of dreams.
Susie Youssef:
How do you feel about this motion, picture Alexei Toliopoulos?
Alexei Toliopoulos:
I love this one.
Susie Youssef:
Well we actually both really loved this.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
It's true. We do. I'm a big drag for this one when it came out because I freaking loved it.
Susie Youssef:
Oh, I saw it twice at the cinema and I feel very embarrassed to say that.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
I saw it once at a preview with my friend. The next day we looked up and there were more previews. And we went again two days in a row.
Susie Youssef:
That makes me feel so much better.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
It is a film. It is all about love and how it tears you apart when you lose it. And when you find it, how your heart must burst with song. Songs and musics is a language of love.
Susie Youssef:
Musics? All of them?
Alexei Toliopoulos:
All of musics is the language of love and Lala land is a translation of that language into the modern day. A language that has not been spoken so beautifully and so soulfully since the 1940s, '50s and '60s when musicals were common back in the day. Now they come sprinkling through like a city of stars, twinkling like dreams from a bygone era. This is film baby. I'm crying.
Susie Youssef:
A compelling argument, Alexei Toliopoulos.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
You always win an argument if you cry.
Susie Youssef:
I know I don't really want to crush all of your dreams here, but I do feel like a movie whose box office is over $440 million. Look, it's a movie, but in the best possible way. It's Ryan Gosling. It's Emma Stone. It's John legend. It is...
Alexei Toliopoulos:
My favourite movie star. John Legend.
Susie Youssef:
Your favourite movie star, John Legend. All right, fine. It's not up to me. Producer Michael, your judgement , please.
Michael Sun:
Look, it's pretty hard to say, but I reckon La La Land is... no sorry wait, there's been a mistake. Moonlight is a film.
Susie Youssef:
If you are loving our chat about films on films, on films, then you are going to want a little bit more and we've got it for you right here with our dessert of the day. It is the Netflix original documentary, Shirkers
Speaker 7:
Give us the materials so we can finish the film. How could it have disappeared? What stakes did he have in this mind game?
Alexei Toliopoulos:
In 1992, Sandy Tan and her friends shot a quirky film on the streets of Singapore. Then the footage disappeared sending her on a hunt for answers. This is a really special film to me. It's like a true crime documentary without the crime. Instead it's about art and a lost film directed by a prodigious young person. It really inspirationally captures the beauty of collaboration and filmmaking and the cancerous nature of those that take energy rather than give it.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
I don't think I can fully put into words how wonderful this memoir mystery documentary really is. These themes of the first burst of creativity or difficult or unconventional collaboration or an outsider art are the same ideas that I am fascinated by and explore in my own documentary work, albeit in a much goofier way.
Susie Youssef:
This is one of those documentaries that you stumble across on Netflix and you're so glad that you did. Sometimes it's really hard to sort through and find those like absolute golden films, but this is one of them.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
This is such a hidden gem that I cannot recommend it enough. I really adore this film. I remember back in 2018, when this film first came out and heard about it coming out on Netflix. I had literally the same hour put together my best of 2018 list and chucked up on all my socials. And I was like, oh, well, what am I going to do now? I'm going to watch a movie. I'll put Shirkers on. And then immediately I'm like, I have to rescind my list. This is number one. This is number one. This is such a cool movie, Susie, you just watched it for the first time. How do you feel about it?
Susie Youssef:
I adored this film. I absolutely love the aesthetic of this film. I mean, I think that the actual topic is obviously so intriguing and exciting and really fresh and a different take. And I think centering on female filmmaking really appeals to me personally.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Absolutely
Susie Youssef:
But there's something about this. It's kind of the antithesis of everything that was spoken about today. So it is this saturated with colour film. It's so sweaty and Singaporean. It's like this anarchist film. You can hear it in my voice. I'm so excited by this sort of filmmaking. It's a really exciting film that still centres on kind of the censorship and the fraud and grade of the industry, but in a really different way. And I think for any filmmaker you have to watch it.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Absolutely. I adore that kind of mixed media feeling of seeing what the old film that went missing looks like, and then interspersed with like modern day footage as well. It's so exciting. It's a must-watch.
Susie Youssef:
And if you need a little bit more, there's so many great movies about movies.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Of course, we've got Ed Wood, which is also a big Orson Welles inspired thing. It's about Ed Wood who made very bad movies in the 1940s and '50s. But it's also about the tenacity of trying to make something. Then you've got Bowfinger which I think is one of the funniest comedies ever, Frank Oz, Steve Martin, Eddie Murphy twice. And then the classic film was Sunset Boulevard is the explosion of the underworld of the forgotten stars of old Hollywood.
Susie Youssef:
And if you want to feel the joy of movies, if you want to have that kind of celebration of the magic of movie making, then you can't go past Singing in the Rain, Gene Kelly, Debbie Reynolds, Donald O'Connor. I'm happy just thinking about it.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Oh, it's the one of the greats. What a wonderful feast we've had today. We started out looking at Who Framed Roger Rabbit. Our main course that fed us so well was Mank and for dessert, we had the truly spectacular Shirkers. And there's only one way to describe that episode, Awesome Welles.
Susie Youssef:
Well, Mank you.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
Okay, if you want to hear more from me, you can head over to total reboot and listen to me talk about reboots remakes and reports with Cameron James.
Susie Youssef:
And if you want to hear more from us, Alexei Toliopoulos and myself, Susie Youssef, then why not join us next week when we watched The Prom with special guests, comedian Reese Nicholson?
Alexei Toliopoulos:
I love Reese.
Susie Youssef:
I love Reese so much.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
This episode was written and hosted by me, Alexei Toliopoulos and my dear friend Susie Youssef. Produced by Michael Sun and Anu Hasbold. Edited by Geoffrey O'Connor and executive produced by Tony Broderick and Melanie Mahony.
Susie Youssef:
if you're still listening, then this is the sealed section.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
I'm going to tell you this fun fact I found about about IMGD that is really the horniest part of Who Framed Roger Rabbit.
Susie Youssef:
This feels so rude.
Alexei Toliopoulos:
This is so rode. This is not for anyone else's ears. To give Jessica's ample bosom and unusual bounce, her supervising [inaudible 00:30:15] Russell Hall reversed the natural up-down movements of her breasts as she walked. They bounce up when a real woman's breasts bounce down and vice versa.
Susie Youssef:
What does that even mean?
Alexei Toliopoulos:
It means some nerd reverse a trajectory of boobs to make them even more sensual.